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  1. #1

    Default Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean?

    I'm just learning about pocket watches. I have a lever set, open face Elgin circa 1882-83, mvt.#1404364.

    The case is gold #1566643. There are no karat marks, instead a symbol on inside of back cover and inside of cuvette. A kings crown with a scales hanging down from it. Even today modern icons drive me crazy.

    Could it mean gold filled and even weight of gold layer to base metal or does it mean 10-12 karat because 50% gold? Saw same mark on another Elgin on ebay same period.

    Can anyone solve this mystery?.....Would appreciate it.....Dennyboy

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: dennyboy)

    That sounds like the mark for a J. Boss gold filled case.
    Chapter 149

  3. #3

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: ben_hutcherson)

    Hey, thank you so much Ben, now to explore J. Boss. Went nuts trying to get my first post here to submit, wrote it 4 times, then still looked like it didn't take and free wi-fi signal on and off. So now celebrating such an immediate answer. Glad I'm registerd now...Thanx again

  4. #4

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: dennyboy)

    Quote Originally Posted by dennyboy View Post
    Went nuts trying to get my first post here to submit, wrote it 4 times, then still looked like it didn't take and free wi-fi signal on and off.
    Welcome to the board, Dennyboy It can be frustrating sometimes, but generally this board behaves quite well. Wait till you spend 20 minutes composing a superb post, and then the system crashes on you

    I'm not as sure as Ben that this is a J Boss trademark. I have one of these marks (shown below) and have it recorded just as a general Keystone mark (they owned J Boss at some stage). Maybe Ben or someone else can clarify for me?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 175 3 Illinois.jpg  

  5. #5

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: MartyR)

    Quote Originally Posted by MartyR View Post
    Welcome to the board, Dennyboy It can be frustrating sometimes, but generally this board behaves quite well. Wait till you spend 20 minutes composing a superb post, and then the system crashes on you

    I'm not as sure as Ben that this is a J Boss trademark. I have one of these marks (shown below) and have it recorded just as a general Keystone mark (they owned J Boss at some stage). Maybe Ben or someone else can clarify for me?
    Marty,

    Ben is correct. The "Crown and Scales" are JBoss trademarks as shown below. The trademark shown above the Crown and Scales are the "Keystone Watch Case Co" trademarks.

    Robert
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Hamilton#Boss-Trademark-With & Without Crown.jpg  

  6. #6

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: Robert Sweet)

    Great answers so far.

    Robert's image would be post-1924 ish.

    Before this time frame

    scales only = 20years gold fill
    crown over scales = 25years gold fill

    in general, keystone cases of solid gold will be so marked.

    welcome to the MB!!
    Chapter 17 North Carolina
    http://www.nawcc-carolina17.org/default.htm
    Chapter 149 Early American Watch Club .. Home of Russ Snyder Illinois CD database and Henry Burgell Serial number Look-up ... excellent research resources!
    http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/ http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/pw_dbresearch.html
    Chapter 149 Mentor List http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/mentor.html

  7. #7

    Smile Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: terry hall)

    You can read more about J. Boss cases in the Keystone Watch Case Co. Encyclopedia article.
    Kent
    That guy down in Georgia

  8. #8

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: Kent)

    Thanks Robert and Terry I've now added "J Boss 25 year" to my records. By the way, my case holds an Illinois dating to 1880 and I think this is the original case - it's certainly a good quality open face case (see the band below) and houses a good quality movement PL'd for an important person.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 175 2 Illinois.jpg  

  9. #9

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: MartyR)

    c'mon.... you are holding back

    let's 'see' that nice watch .....
    Chapter 17 North Carolina
    http://www.nawcc-carolina17.org/default.htm
    Chapter 149 Early American Watch Club .. Home of Russ Snyder Illinois CD database and Henry Burgell Serial number Look-up ... excellent research resources!
    http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/ http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/pw_dbresearch.html
    Chapter 149 Mentor List http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/mentor.html

  10. #10

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: terry hall)

    Quote Originally Posted by terry hall View Post
    c'mon.... you are holding back

    let's 'see' that nice watch .....
    You know I never hold back I have shown this watch here before, but another airing will do it no harm

    It's a Grade 101 made for Warren Dobbs, who was Grand Commander of the Masonic Knights Templar of Mississippi, and the watch may have been presented to commemorate the 21st Triennial Conclave which took place in Chicago, Illinois.

    I still have no explanation of the flags on the dial, which are hand painted and obviously a later addition.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 175 1 Illinois.jpg   175 4 Illinois.jpg  

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: MartyR)

    Marty,

    That's certainly a nice and interesting movement, but it doesn't appear to be the original case.
    Chapter 149

  12. #12

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: ben_hutcherson)

    Quote Originally Posted by ben_hutcherson View Post
    That's certainly a nice and interesting movement, but it doesn't appear to be the original case.
    In which case the source of the watch would surprize you

    I had thought that the movement was set in the case slightly askew. It's a lever-set, and sometimes the stem-wind allows some tolerance of location. I haven't looked at the watch for a while, and as I happen to have this box at home right now I will study it more closely

  13. #13

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: MartyR)

    thanks marty

    interesting movement and dial for sure ... pl + the engraved balance cock.

    visual evidence supports Ben's observation.... too many marks... and the location don't support stem misalignment.
    btw the lower screw needs snugging up.

    flags are interesting, though the detail on the right one hinders identifying it.
    Chapter 17 North Carolina
    http://www.nawcc-carolina17.org/default.htm
    Chapter 149 Early American Watch Club .. Home of Russ Snyder Illinois CD database and Henry Burgell Serial number Look-up ... excellent research resources!
    http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/ http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/pw_dbresearch.html
    Chapter 149 Mentor List http://www.nawcc-ch149.com/mentor.html

  14. #14

    Default Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: terry hall)

    Thanks Terry (and Ben). Now that I actually use my eyes I can indeed see that this is a replacement case

    Terry, the right-hand flag is Cuban, and the date below is either 1888 or 1898. I've googled that combination to death without success What I need is someone who knows about American-Cuban 19th century history. Would that be you by any chance ?

  15. #15

    Smile Re: Elgin case gold hallmark, what does it mean? (RE: MartyR)

    1898 is the date of the Spanish–American War, a war caused by yellow-journalism and a reaction to an explosion that sunk the battleship USS Maine in Havana harbor. Nowadays, the explosion is thought to have been caused by coal dust, but back then it was believed to have set by the Spanish because of US support of Cuban revolutionaries.
    Kent
    That guy down in Georgia

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