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  1. #1
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G.

    Hi,

    can anyboby here come up with reliable dating as to
    when the French introduced that Brevete S.G.D.G. patent term?

    Yeah, I know what it means...

    Thanks,

    Jurgen

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: soaringjoy)

    Hi Jurgen
    Good question. Wikipedia says: "The modern French patent system was created during the Revolution in 1791. Patents were granted without examination since inventor's right was considered as a natural one".

    The concept seems to have been conceived in the Middle Ages, but the current system started in the 15th Century. Again from Wikipedia: "Patents in the modern sense originated in 1474, when the Republic of Venice enacted a decree that new and inventive devices, once put into practice, had to be communicated to the Republic to obtain the right to prevent others from using them."

    The American system started in 1790 when Congress pasted the first Patent Law.

  3. #3
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: Kim St.Dennis Sr.)

    Thank you very much for your quick response.
    I will follow up on that.
    Jurgen

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: soaringjoy)

    This is in echt-furriner but it seems to say that it was used between 1844-1968, oder?

    Cette mention a été établie par la loi de 1844 qui dit que les brevets sont délivrés « sans examen préalable, aux risques et périls des demandeurs, et sans garantie soit de la réalité, de la nouveauté ou du mérite de l’invention, soit de la fidélité ou de l’exactitude de la description ». Cette mention a disparu en 1968.


    Various commentaries (e.g. from the 1850s) also trace the use to the French patent law of 1844. Supposedly the entire phrase was to be used, but in practice the abbreviations were.

    One believes
    Last edited by zepernick; 01-22-2011 at 03:18 PM.

  5. #5
    Principal Administrator John Hubby's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: soaringjoy)

    Jurgen, I have documented clocks made by Farcot and Guilmet in 1868-1870 that were stamped Breveté SGDG. I have documented earlier French clocks that are stamped Breveté but without the SGDG, unfortunately can't date those accurately.

    I just remembered to check Hardy, and that reference provides a trademark for Farcot with an eagle on a globe having the words "Breveté SGDG", this being in context of the 1860's but without a specific date. Farcot's first patent was in 1860 according to Hardy.
    Last edited by John Hubby; 01-22-2011 at 03:41 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: zepernick)

    Well, one does forget to post relevancies. The 1844 discussion of the point is below.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails SGDG 1844.jpg   SGDG 1844 2:2.jpg  

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: zepernick)

    The reference for the wikipedia quote on the French patent system is:
    Gabriel Galvez-Behar, La République des inventeurs. Propriété et organisation de l'innovation en France, 1791-1922, Presses universitaires de Rennes, 2008, ISBN 2-7535-0695-7, 9782753506954.

    A very interesting history of French Patent Laws can be found at this site:
    http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/khan.patents

    It backs up the Wikipedia article and list the 1791 statue as the start of the patent system. The 1800 & 1844 Statues were updates of the 1791 laws.
    Last edited by Kim St.Dennis Sr.; 01-23-2011 at 12:56 AM. Reason: more info

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: Kim St.Dennis Sr.)

    Interestingly the full phrase for Patent is "brevets d'invention". I began to wonder what the phrase "Brevete S.G.D.G." meant. So a quick on line translation of the document post by Zapernik came up with the following. The phrase "Brevete San Garantie Du Governement" means "Patent without the Government guarantee". Which I think means Patent Pending, my French being none existent.
    Last edited by Kim St.Dennis Sr.; 01-23-2011 at 01:42 AM. Reason: correction

  9. #9

    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: Kim St.Dennis Sr.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim St.Dennis Sr. View Post
    Interestingly the full phrase for Patent is "brevets d'invention". I began to wonder what the phrase "Brevete S.G.D.G." meant. So a quick on line translation of the document post by Zapernik came up with the following. The phrase "Brevete San Garantie Du Governement" means "Patent without the Government guarantee". Which I think means Patent Pending, my French being none existent.
    Not patent pending actually but something like that the claims of the patent itself are not backed in any way by guarantee of the government.

  10. #10
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: Steven Thornberry)

    Thank you all!

    I did know, that Brevete S.G.D.G. was already used around 1860,
    because I have a couple of clocks, which are dated ca. 1860
    by Alan & Rita Shenton's "Collectable Clocks 1840 - 1940" and
    they already sport the term.

    What I didn't know, was that French patent laws were introduced
    as early as 1791, and especially the 1844 update, which seems to be
    the essential one here.

    Nevertheless, "sans garantie du gouvernement" is a denial of responsibility,
    that the patent is - in fact - a novelty.
    At least, I would read it that way.

    In the meantime I've found a very informative Homepage that goes
    up and down on all kinds of international patent laws, like a roller coaster,
    starting in ancient Greece.
    I got real dizzy, reading that.
    Don't worry - it's in German (sorry about that), but maybe Zep would like to take a chance on it....

    http://www.wolfgang-pfaller.de/index.htm

    Jurgen

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: soaringjoy)

    Quote Originally Posted by soaringjoy View Post
    Don't worry - it's in German (sorry about that), but maybe Zep would like to take a chance on it....

    http://www.wolfgang-pfaller.de/index.htm

    Jurgen
    Greetings Jürgen,

    Yes, it is a superb source. Had made the mistake of scratching the itch of curiosity a few years ago and found myself involved with German historical horological patents (sigh...). This site was most helpful. One result was an article "German Patent Letter Clues" that first appeared in in the April and May 1998 issues of CLOCKS, and was then reprinted in the October 2000 NAWCC Bulletin. It is long but boring.

    Once that, uh, completely normal fascination was established, it was on to the Landespatente before 1877. This too is an exciting area. And a good topic at parties. One result was "What Goes Round: Historical German Patents and Torsion Pendulum Clocks" in the February 2006 Bulletin.

    If more people were interested in German historical horological patents, uh...if more people were interested in them...then...hmmm....

    Best regards on a sunny Sunday
    Zep

  12. #12
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: zepernick)

    Hello Zep,

    should have known, that you know...

    I really was astonished however, that there was a so called
    "anti-patent-movement" in Germany in the early 1800s...
    chaotic anarchists they were.
    Of course episodes like those makes reading as exciting as a
    cloak and dagger novel!

    Yeah, well, almost.

    Jurgen

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: soaringjoy)

    Hi

    Below is a on-line translation of the paragraph in the document that Zapernik posted regarding "Brevete S.G.D.G." "san garantie du Gouvernment"



    But even with a some what scrambled online translation, I still do not understand what the phrase means and who is Mr. Rapportteur anyway?



    "M. le Rapportteur répute l’amendement inutile. Le fait qui a été prohibé par la loi est un fait qui ne résulte pas plus du brevet ancien que du nouveau. L’interdiction de prendre la qualité de braveté, sans y ajouter les mots: san garantie du Gouvernment, s’applique a tous les faits à venir, à quelque époque que se rattache la deliverance du brevet. En cela il n’y a pas de rétroactivite, car ce n’est pas au brevet que la disposition s’applique, mais au fait abusive extérieur."

    "Mr. Rapportteur deems the amendment unnecessary. The fact that has been prohibited by law is a fact which does not result more of the patent old as the new. The prohibition of take the quality of braveté, without adding the words: sans guarantee of the Government, applies to all the facts to come, at any time is related to this deliverance of the patent. In that there is no rétroactivite, because this is not the patent that the provision applies, but the fact abusive outside."


    I kind of think is that it is some kind of patent pending for already approved patents or improvements to existing patents, maybe. I think the entire document will need to be translated to completely understand why the phrase is so important to French Patent system.

  14. #14
    Registered User soaringjoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dating: Brevete S.G.D.G. (RE: Kim St.Dennis Sr.)

    Hello Kim,

    well, my French isn't really brilliant, either, but usually I can get
    at least the message....

    Now, using software translations, works out somehow weird, even
    in popular speech.
    If you are going into contracts or legals, for example, you'll have no
    chance at all, because you'll never get the real, intended meaning.
    Then, you will have to know, whether the statements you are handling,
    are of a legal (authorities), or of a media (journals, etc.) source.
    The diction and meaning simply is different.

    The "sans garantie" term actually affects, that the government will not
    take responsibility to the items or methods described being really new inventions.
    The French authorities therefore, did not compare new patent applications
    with the old ones already in stock - at least not up to 1968 (?).
    The German Patent Office did do this, for example, from the start.

    That Monsieur le Rapportteur fellow is, in fact nobody else than the reporter -
    the guy writing the article, the press-corresspondent.
    A polite way of describing his function in speech and writing.
    I believe, his real name was Jaques DuPont or something....

    Jurgen

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